>    I still have a B&D drill I bought in 1970.  I have four or five of
> them, all from the 60s though the early '80s that have seen a lot of
> rough service I wore out one chuck, and several power cords.  All US
> made.

>    I thought that Makita is chinese made these days? Or is it Ryobi?

>>Michael A. Terrell wrote:

>>>This is a hand operated metal punch for smaller holes:

>>><http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91510>

>>>This is a base to mount it to a workbench:

>>><http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93787>

>>>They are similar to the more expensive ROPER-WHITNEY METAL PUNCH

>>>Here are some examples of the step drills that John mentioned:

>>><http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=step+...>

>>>   They are great for deburring holes and inside the ends of conduit, as
>>>well.

>>Thanks for the links, and thanks for the ones to other HF stuff
>>you've posted in the past.  Always appreciated!  :-)

>>Ed

>   You're welcome.  BTW, have you seen their steppless tapered drills?

> <http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66463>

>    They would be useful for a few jobs, like needing to slightly open a
> hole without going a full step. :)

>DeWalt is owned by Black & Decker (...as of 1992).

>But it is their "premium" line, similar to Toyota/Lexus, whewreas the B&D line
>is aimed at "home" usage.

> "ChrisQ" <m...@devnull.com> wrote in message
> news:ubJHm.15250$k31.9710@newsfe04.ams2...
> > The best us kit i've seen in the uk is De Walt. Their stuff is popular in
> > the trade here and seems to last forever, even when worked hard...

> DeWalt is owned by Black & Decker (...as of 1992).

> But it is their "premium" line, similar to Toyota/Lexus, where as the B&D line
> is aimed at "home" usage.

>>    That is one of the cheaper models. That is the same price as each of
>> the drills I bought, without the toy light or molded case.  The absolute
>> worst cordless drills I've seen was my first one, a yellow plastic piece
>> of crap from Rockwell, and some 'Coleman Powermate' drills that were
>> given to me. They were store returns, and I've wonder if they were
>> actually returned, or thrown through the store windows.  One had a
>> broken output shaft from the gearbox. The other had some wires that were
>> never connected.  I 'fixed' that one and have seven batteries, but but
>> it makes anything else look good.

>I know we would all like to buy kit made locally, but the very best
>power tools you can buy, imho, are Makita. I have bought both new and
>s/hand from machinery auctions and boot sales. The secondhand ones
>always get stripped, cleaned and relubed before use and you should see
>the internals. Invariably ball or roller bearings on all shafts and
>generously proportioned motors, which never seem to have any wear on the
>commutators, irrespective of age. You can look at it with an engineers
>critical eye and find little to find fault with. Some of the Bosch kit
>is not bad as well and even some of the Black & Decker stuff, so long as
>it's been made at the Scintilla subsiduary in Switzerland, but much of
>the B&D stuff is rubbish.

>>ChrisQ wrote:

>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:

>>> >    That is one of the cheaper models. That is the same price as each of
>>> > the drills I bought, without the toy light or molded case.  The absolute
>>> > worst cordless drills I've seen was my first one, a yellow plastic piece
>>> > of crap from Rockwell, and some 'Coleman Powermate' drills that were
>>> > given to me. They were store returns, and I've wonder if they were
>>> > actually returned, or thrown through the store windows.  One had a
>>> > broken output shaft from the gearbox. The other had some wires that were
>>> > never connected.  I 'fixed' that one and have seven batteries, but but
>>> > it makes anything else look good.

>>> I know we would all like to buy kit made locally, but the very best
>>> power tools you can buy, imho, are Makita. I have bought both new and
>>> s/hand from machinery auctions and boot sales. The secondhand ones
>>> always get stripped, cleaned and relubed before use and you should see
>>> the internals. Invariably ball or roller bearings on all shafts and
>>> generously proportioned motors, which never seem to have any wear on the
>>> commutators, irrespective of age. You can look at it with an engineers
>>> critical eye and find little to find fault with. Some of the Bosch kit
>>> is not bad as well and even some of the Black & Decker stuff, so long as
>>> it's been made at the Scintilla subsiduary in Switzerland, but much of
>>> the B&D stuff is rubbish.

>>> It's the old story - buy cheap, buy twice :-)...

>>   I still have a B&D drill I bought in 1970.  I have four or five of
>>them, all from the 60s though the early '80s that have seen a lot of
>>rough service I wore out one chuck, and several power cords.  All US
>>made.

>>   I thought that Makita is chinese made these days? Or is it Ryobi?

>Makita is a Japanese company, but of course they make tools in China.

>Ryobi is a bit more of a story.. they used to be Japanese, but they
>now are owned by a company called TTI, which makes such brand-name
>"stuff" as Homelite, Milwaukee, Rigid (for Home Depot) etc... all in
>South China. Founded by a European and a Chinese fellow about 25 years
>ago.

>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 14:01:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>><mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>>ChrisQ wrote:

>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:

>>>> >    That is one of the cheaper models. That is the same price as each of
>>>> > the drills I bought, without the toy light or molded case.  The absolute
>>>> > worst cordless drills I've seen was my first one, a yellow plastic piece
>>>> > of crap from Rockwell, and some 'Coleman Powermate' drills that were
>>>> > given to me. They were store returns, and I've wonder if they were
>>>> > actually returned, or thrown through the store windows.  One had a
>>>> > broken output shaft from the gearbox. The other had some wires that were
>>>> > never connected.  I 'fixed' that one and have seven batteries, but but
>>>> > it makes anything else look good.

>>>> I know we would all like to buy kit made locally, but the very best
>>>> power tools you can buy, imho, are Makita. I have bought both new and
>>>> s/hand from machinery auctions and boot sales. The secondhand ones
>>>> always get stripped, cleaned and relubed before use and you should see
>>>> the internals. Invariably ball or roller bearings on all shafts and
>>>> generously proportioned motors, which never seem to have any wear on the
>>>> commutators, irrespective of age. You can look at it with an engineers
>>>> critical eye and find little to find fault with. Some of the Bosch kit
>>>> is not bad as well and even some of the Black & Decker stuff, so long as
>>>> it's been made at the Scintilla subsiduary in Switzerland, but much of
>>>> the B&D stuff is rubbish.

>>>> It's the old story - buy cheap, buy twice :-)...

>>>   I still have a B&D drill I bought in 1970.  I have four or five of
>>>them, all from the 60s though the early '80s that have seen a lot of
>>>rough service I wore out one chuck, and several power cords.  All US
>>>made.

>>>   I thought that Makita is chinese made these days? Or is it Ryobi?

>>Makita is a Japanese company, but of course they make tools in China.

>>Ryobi is a bit more of a story.. they used to be Japanese, but they
>>now are owned by a company called TTI, which makes such brand-name
>>"stuff" as Homelite, Milwaukee, Rigid (for Home Depot) etc... all in
>>South China. Founded by a European and a Chinese fellow about 25 years
>>ago.

>Rigid is a US company.  They're out of the Cleveland area and they are
>*not* a HomeDespot brand.

> Some Makita is OK.  Most of it is overpriced.  I now have mostly Bosch
> and Dewalt tools, with a few older PC (router, drill, etc) thrown in.
> Oh, and a Hitachi nail gun. I stopped buying Makita about ten years
> ago.

> It's hard to get rid of crap tools.  It's easier just not to buy them.
> ;-)

> > On Nov 1, 8:48 am, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote:
> > > John Fields wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 14:01:28 +0000, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote:

> > > >> m...@sushi.com wrote:

> > > >>> I needed to mount a dozen Canon jacks and used the Harbor Freight step
> > > >>> drills in your 3rd link. I used the 3 piece set. Harbor Freight is
> > > >>> well known for selling junk, but these stepped drills work great.
> > > >> The only problem with step drills is the amount of filing you need to do
> > > >> afterwards to clean all the burrs.

> > > > ---
> > > > IME, deburring the entry side only requires feeding the drill into the
> > > > workpiece until the angular edge of the next step does the debur.  Then,
> > > > to debur the exit side, all that's needed is to turn the workpiece over
> > > > and let that same angular edge do that debur.

> > > That's true if you have access to both sides, but not so good drilling
> > > into the side of a box, where you don't have drill access to the inside.
> > > Problem with materials like ali or plastic is that step drills and hole
> > > saws deform the material and generate quite a bit of heat. That can work
> > > harden the burr, making it a devil to clear. Rotary file bits in the
> > > drill can help, but it's still more hassle and leaves a more untidy job
> > > than a punch in the end.

> > > Regards,

> > > Chris

> > True that a punch doesn't need debur, but these holes were pretty
> > clean. I didn't have to debur much. It really depends on how many
> > holes you will be punching. At some point, the chassis punch makes
> > sense.  Anyway, my point is these step drills are one of the things at
> > HF that doesn't suck.

> > Of course, it takes some time for the smell of the store to leave your
> > lungs.....

> > Ah, one more thing that doesn't suck are those yard rakes from HF.
> > And of course I can't find them on the website. Figures.

>    I bought one there, with a yellow fiberglass handle a few months ago.

> --
> The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:22:16 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>><speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 14:01:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>>><mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>>>ChrisQ wrote:

>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:

>>>>> >    That is one of the cheaper models. That is the same price as each of
>>>>> > the drills I bought, without the toy light or molded case.  The absolute
>>>>> > worst cordless drills I've seen was my first one, a yellow plastic piece
>>>>> > of crap from Rockwell, and some 'Coleman Powermate' drills that were
>>>>> > given to me. They were store returns, and I've wonder if they were
>>>>> > actually returned, or thrown through the store windows.  One had a
>>>>> > broken output shaft from the gearbox. The other had some wires that were
>>>>> > never connected.  I 'fixed' that one and have seven batteries, but but
>>>>> > it makes anything else look good.

>>>>> I know we would all like to buy kit made locally, but the very best
>>>>> power tools you can buy, imho, are Makita. I have bought both new and
>>>>> s/hand from machinery auctions and boot sales. The secondhand ones
>>>>> always get stripped, cleaned and relubed before use and you should see
>>>>> the internals. Invariably ball or roller bearings on all shafts and
>>>>> generously proportioned motors, which never seem to have any wear on the
>>>>> commutators, irrespective of age. You can look at it with an engineers
>>>>> critical eye and find little to find fault with. Some of the Bosch kit
>>>>> is not bad as well and even some of the Black & Decker stuff, so long as
>>>>> it's been made at the Scintilla subsiduary in Switzerland, but much of
>>>>> the B&D stuff is rubbish.

>>>>> It's the old story - buy cheap, buy twice :-)...

>>>>   I still have a B&D drill I bought in 1970.  I have four or five of
>>>>them, all from the 60s though the early '80s that have seen a lot of
>>>>rough service I wore out one chuck, and several power cords.  All US
>>>>made.

>>>>   I thought that Makita is chinese made these days? Or is it Ryobi?

>>>Makita is a Japanese company, but of course they make tools in China.

>>>Ryobi is a bit more of a story.. they used to be Japanese, but they
>>>now are owned by a company called TTI, which makes such brand-name
>>>"stuff" as Homelite, Milwaukee, Rigid (for Home Depot) etc... all in
>>>South China. Founded by a European and a Chinese fellow about 25 years
>>>ago.

>>Rigid is a US company.  They're out of the Cleveland area and they are
>>*not* a HomeDespot brand.

>TTI-made-in-China Rigid-branded tools *are* effectively a Home Despot
>brand since they are (were?) made exclusively for them, so I'm afraid
>I have to disagree with your blanket statement.

>> Some Makita is OK.  Most of it is overpriced.  I now have mostly Bosch
>> and Dewalt tools, with a few older PC (router, drill, etc) thrown in.
>> Oh, and a Hitachi nail gun. I stopped buying Makita about ten years
>> ago.

>Agreed, Makita is expensive, but no more so, at least here, than other
>pro grade tools. The irritating thing is that all the jap power tools
>seem to be good, + the fact we make nothing anywhere near approaching it
>in this country. Brit machine tools were sold all over the world and
>what have we now ?. Nothing, basically.

>> It's hard to get rid of crap tools.  It's easier just not to buy them.
>> ;-)

>There are times when you buy cheap tools to get a job done because
>you're skint, but always on the understanding that it will most likely
>need to be replaced. Much more fun to buy quality, look after it and use
>it for a lifetime :-)...

> Michael A. Terrell wrote:

> > "m...@sushi.com" wrote:

> > > Ah, one more thing that doesn't suck are those yard rakes from HF.
> > > And of course I can't find them on the website. Figures.

> >    I bought one there, with a yellow fiberglass handle a few months ago.

> No, this one is metal. It has a telescoping handle. A lot of times I'm
> digging out pine needles and cones beneath trees and rather use the
> short handle to get in close to the mess. The handle can be extended
> for normal raking. About $4 on sale.

>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:18:53 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:22:16 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>>><speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

>>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 14:01:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>>>><mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>>>>ChrisQ wrote:

>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:

>>>>>> >    That is one of the cheaper models. That is the same price as each of
>>>>>> > the drills I bought, without the toy light or molded case.  The absolute
>>>>>> > worst cordless drills I've seen was my first one, a yellow plastic piece
>>>>>> > of crap from Rockwell, and some 'Coleman Powermate' drills that were
>>>>>> > given to me. They were store returns, and I've wonder if they were
>>>>>> > actually returned, or thrown through the store windows.  One had a
>>>>>> > broken output shaft from the gearbox. The other had some wires that were
>>>>>> > never connected.  I 'fixed' that one and have seven batteries, but but
>>>>>> > it makes anything else look good.

>>>>>> I know we would all like to buy kit made locally, but the very best
>>>>>> power tools you can buy, imho, are Makita. I have bought both new and
>>>>>> s/hand from machinery auctions and boot sales. The secondhand ones
>>>>>> always get stripped, cleaned and relubed before use and you should see
>>>>>> the internals. Invariably ball or roller bearings on all shafts and
>>>>>> generously proportioned motors, which never seem to have any wear on the
>>>>>> commutators, irrespective of age. You can look at it with an engineers
>>>>>> critical eye and find little to find fault with. Some of the Bosch kit
>>>>>> is not bad as well and even some of the Black & Decker stuff, so long as
>>>>>> it's been made at the Scintilla subsiduary in Switzerland, but much of
>>>>>> the B&D stuff is rubbish.

>>>>>> It's the old story - buy cheap, buy twice :-)...

>>>>>   I still have a B&D drill I bought in 1970.  I have four or five of
>>>>>them, all from the 60s though the early '80s that have seen a lot of
>>>>>rough service I wore out one chuck, and several power cords.  All US
>>>>>made.

>>>>>   I thought that Makita is chinese made these days? Or is it Ryobi?

>>>>Makita is a Japanese company, but of course they make tools in China.

>>>>Ryobi is a bit more of a story.. they used to be Japanese, but they
>>>>now are owned by a company called TTI, which makes such brand-name
>>>>"stuff" as Homelite, Milwaukee, Rigid (for Home Depot) etc... all in
>>>>South China. Founded by a European and a Chinese fellow about 25 years
>>>>ago.

>>>Rigid is a US company.  They're out of the Cleveland area and they are
>>>*not* a HomeDespot brand.

>>TTI-made-in-China Rigid-branded tools *are* effectively a Home Despot
>>brand since they are (were?) made exclusively for them, so I'm afraid
>>I have to disagree with your blanket statement.

>No they are certainly not.  I interviewed with them[*] last year and
>they certainly will disagree, as well.

>[*] I don't do layout so they weren't much interested.

> I have bought their drill bits and use the smaller ones a fair bit.
> The bigger ones last a long time so I can afford to buy good ones. ;-)
> I've had a problem with the temper on screwdrivers and alignment of
> the jaws on pliers.  HF isn't alone here but they are pretty bad.
> I also have their 10" compound sliding miter saw.  It's fine for
> framing but it's not so great for woodworking.  I'll likely replace
> it, perhaps with a Bosch or Dewalt, in a year or so.

> > I have bought their drill bits and use the smaller ones a fair bit.
> > The bigger ones last a long time so I can afford to buy good ones. ;-)
> > I've had a problem with the temper on screwdrivers and alignment of
> > the jaws on pliers.  HF isn't alone here but they are pretty bad.
> > I also have their 10" compound sliding miter saw.  It's fine for
> > framing but it's not so great for woodworking.  I'll likely replace
> > it, perhaps with a Bosch or Dewalt, in a year or so.

>    http://hfreviews.com/

> --
> The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

> Michael A. Terrell wrote:

> >    http://hfreviews.com/

> I liked the HF review site. I have one of those butane torches that
> somehow now fails to work. Damn, a waste of $2. ;-) That 2/3 of the
> way to a backlit DVM.

>>On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:40:08 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>><speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:18:53 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:22:16 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>>>><speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

>>>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 14:01:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>>>>><mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>>>>>ChrisQ wrote:

>>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:

>>>>>>> >    That is one of the cheaper models. That is the same price as each of
>>>>>>> > the drills I bought, without the toy light or molded case.  The absolute
>>>>>>> > worst cordless drills I've seen was my first one, a yellow plastic piece
>>>>>>> > of crap from Rockwell, and some 'Coleman Powermate' drills that were
>>>>>>> > given to me. They were store returns, and I've wonder if they were
>>>>>>> > actually returned, or thrown through the store windows.  One had a
>>>>>>> > broken output shaft from the gearbox. The other had some wires that were
>>>>>>> > never connected.  I 'fixed' that one and have seven batteries, but but
>>>>>>> > it makes anything else look good.

>>>>>>> I know we would all like to buy kit made locally, but the very best
>>>>>>> power tools you can buy, imho, are Makita. I have bought both new and
>>>>>>> s/hand from machinery auctions and boot sales. The secondhand ones
>>>>>>> always get stripped, cleaned and relubed before use and you should see
>>>>>>> the internals. Invariably ball or roller bearings on all shafts and
>>>>>>> generously proportioned motors, which never seem to have any wear on the
>>>>>>> commutators, irrespective of age. You can look at it with an engineers
>>>>>>> critical eye and find little to find fault with. Some of the Bosch kit
>>>>>>> is not bad as well and even some of the Black & Decker stuff, so long as
>>>>>>> it's been made at the Scintilla subsiduary in Switzerland, but much of
>>>>>>> the B&D stuff is rubbish.

>>>>>>> It's the old story - buy cheap, buy twice :-)...

>>>>>>   I still have a B&D drill I bought in 1970.  I have four or five of
>>>>>>them, all from the 60s though the early '80s that have seen a lot of
>>>>>>rough service I wore out one chuck, and several power cords.  All US
>>>>>>made.

>>>>>>   I thought that Makita is chinese made these days? Or is it Ryobi?

>>>>>Makita is a Japanese company, but of course they make tools in China.

>>>>>Ryobi is a bit more of a story.. they used to be Japanese, but they
>>>>>now are owned by a company called TTI, which makes such brand-name
>>>>>"stuff" as Homelite, Milwaukee, Rigid (for Home Depot) etc... all in
>>>>>South China. Founded by a European and a Chinese fellow about 25 years
>>>>>ago.

>>>>Rigid is a US company.  They're out of the Cleveland area and they are
>>>>*not* a HomeDespot brand.

>>>TTI-made-in-China Rigid-branded tools *are* effectively a Home Despot
>>>brand since they are (were?) made exclusively for them, so I'm afraid
>>>I have to disagree with your blanket statement.

>>No they are certainly not.  I interviewed with them[*] last year and
>>they certainly will disagree, as well.

>>[*] I don't do layout so they weren't much interested.

>I don't think you understand. I did not say that TTI made *all* of
>Rigid's tools. I said they made "Rigid (for Home Depot)"
>quote/unquote. This wording was quite deliberate, and avoided getting
>into all the details while illustrating one of the brands TTI
>manufactures/d. Here is a link to a paper covering this, if you are
>interested in understanding what is a major shift in the industry:

>http://www.teleos-inc.com/pdfs/wp/Wal-Mart_Effect_Intro.pdf

>Are you claiming that those Rigid tools are not made in South China?
>If so, you are quite incorrect; I have seen it with my own eyes.

>> > I have bought their drill bits and use the smaller ones a fair bit.
>> > The bigger ones last a long time so I can afford to buy good ones. ;-)
>> > I've had a problem with the temper on screwdrivers and alignment of
>> > the jaws on pliers.  HF isn't alone here but they are pretty bad.
>> > I also have their 10" compound sliding miter saw.  It's fine for
>> > framing but it's not so great for woodworking.  I'll likely replace
>> > it, perhaps with a Bosch or Dewalt, in a year or so.

>>    http://hfreviews.com/

>> --
>> The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

>I liked the HF review site. I have one of those butane torches that
>somehow now fails to work. Damn, a waste of $2. ;-) That 2/3 of the
>way to a backlit DVM.

>No, I'm claiming that 1) Rigid is not a Chinese company (it is US
>company with development in Ohio).  2) Rigid is not a house brand for
>HomeDespot.  I have no doubt they outsource manufacturing to anyone
>willing to do the job for the price.

> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 01:19:21 -0800 (PST), "m...@sushi.com"
> <m...@sushi.com> wrote:

> >On Nov 3, 9:37 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> >wrote:
> >> krw wrote:

> >> > I have bought their drill bits and use the smaller ones a fair bit.
> >> > The bigger ones last a long time so I can afford to buy good ones. ;-)
> >> > I've had a problem with the temper on screwdrivers and alignment of
> >> > the jaws on pliers.  HF isn't alone here but they are pretty bad.
> >> > I also have their 10" compound sliding miter saw.  It's fine for
> >> > framing but it's not so great for woodworking.  I'll likely replace
> >> > it, perhaps with a Bosch or Dewalt, in a year or so.

> >>    http://hfreviews.com/

> >> --
> >> The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

> >I liked the HF review site. I have one of those butane torches that
> >somehow now fails to work. Damn, a waste of $2. ;-) That 2/3 of the
> >way to a backlit DVM.

> I looked a few of the HF things I have.  None have reviews.

>>>Are you claiming that those Rigid tools are not made in South China?
>>>If so, you are quite incorrect; I have seen it with my own eyes.

>>No, I'm claiming that 1) Rigid is not a Chinese company (it is US
>>company with development in Ohio).  2) Rigid is not a house brand for
>>HomeDespot.  I have no doubt they outsource manufacturing to anyone
>>willing to do the job for the price.

>  Rigid was around long before Home Depot as well as long before we were
>doing any kind of Chinese outsourcing of that nature.

>"Morph"?  Nymbecile calling *me* "morph boy"?  You're just too stupid
>for words, AlwaysWrong.

>>"Morph"?  Nymbecile calling *me* "morph boy"?  You're just too stupid
>>for words, AlwaysWrong.

>  It was your stupid reference to Home Depot, you absolute retard.