On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:51:58 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote:
>Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! >Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion! >Super Low Distortion multilayer ceramic capacitors.. >Ex: http://www.yuden.co.jp/us/product/pdf/dtmk_e.pdf >But not a distortion spec in sight :( >I suppose super low means it can't be measured and that's why there no >spec :) >I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
You have to spend at least $100 per cap to imbue them with audiophile magic. Total cost of the product should be no less than $5,000 even if the circuit has less than twenty components.
On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:14 +0000, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote: >D from BC wrote: >> Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! >> Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion!
<aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote: >On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:51:58 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >>Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! >>Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion!
>>But not a distortion spec in sight :( >>I suppose super low means it can't be measured and that's why there no >>spec :)
>>I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
>You have to spend at least $100 per cap to imbue them with audiophile magic. >Total cost of the product should be no less than $5,000 even if the circuit >has less than twenty components.
New MONSTERCAP by monstercable! Made with 2oz gold foil and virgin plastic film. Delivered by angels from heaven to an audiophile store new you :P
>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:06:40 -0600, AZ Nomad ><aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote: >>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:51:58 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >>>Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! >>>Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion!
>>>But not a distortion spec in sight :( >>>I suppose super low means it can't be measured and that's why there no >>>spec :)
>>>I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
>>You have to spend at least $100 per cap to imbue them with audiophile magic. >>Total cost of the product should be no less than $5,000 even if the circuit >>has less than twenty components. >New MONSTERCAP by monstercable! >Made with 2oz gold foil and virgin plastic film. >Delivered by angels from heaven to an audiophile store new you :P
On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:30:01 -0800, D from BC wrote: > On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:14 +0000, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote: >>D from BC wrote: >>> Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low >>> Distortion!
>>> But not a distortion spec in sight :( I suppose super low means it >>> can't be measured and that's why there no spec :)
Check for something like "capacitance change with voltage" or so.
>>> I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
>>I guess you mean dielectric absorption ?. Wikipedia have an article on >>this iirc, which describes the effect and compares dielectrics.
>>This isn't a golden ears oxygen free copper scenario, is it ?...
> Beats me.. > I just get attracted to things with 'super low' in the title. :)
> Do you have a preferred type of chip capacitor (ex 1206 size) for audio > active filters?
Well, I wouldn't use ceramics, that's for sure. I don't know what other materials are available in chip size, other than tantalum and aluminum electrolytics.
But, go ahead and get some samples, design them into something, and report back with distortion figures. ;-)
<aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote: >On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:35:12 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:06:40 -0600, AZ Nomad >><aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:51:58 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >>>>Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! >>>>Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion!
>>>>But not a distortion spec in sight :( >>>>I suppose super low means it can't be measured and that's why there no >>>>spec :)
>>>>I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
>>>You have to spend at least $100 per cap to imbue them with audiophile magic. >>>Total cost of the product should be no less than $5,000 even if the circuit >>>has less than twenty components.
>>New MONSTERCAP by monstercable! >>Made with 2oz gold foil and virgin plastic film. >>Delivered by angels from heaven to an audiophile store new you :P
I'd like to interview the designer that designed that cable. Q1: Was this embarrassing to design? Q2: Where you shocked to discover the msrp? Q3: How do you feel about making a product that is overkill?
>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:11:34 -0600, AZ Nomad ><aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote: >>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:35:12 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >>>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:06:40 -0600, AZ Nomad >>><aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:51:58 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >>>>>Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! >>>>>Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion!
>>>>>But not a distortion spec in sight :( >>>>>I suppose super low means it can't be measured and that's why there no >>>>>spec :)
>>>>>I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
>>>>You have to spend at least $100 per cap to imbue them with audiophile magic. >>>>Total cost of the product should be no less than $5,000 even if the circuit >>>>has less than twenty components.
>>>New MONSTERCAP by monstercable! >>>Made with 2oz gold foil and virgin plastic film. >>>Delivered by angels from heaven to an audiophile store new you :P
>>denon outdid them all with five hundred dollar ethernet cables. >>http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM >I'd like to interview the designer that designed that cable. >Q1: Was this embarrassing to design? >Q2: Where you shocked to discover the msrp? >Q3: How do you feel about making a product that is overkill?
overkill? hardly. It was a calculated product sold with a pack of outright lies to take advantage of customers with tons of money but not a braincell in operation. Marketing at its finest. Bill Gates would have been proud of them. Move over tice clock, make way for denon!
>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:30:01 -0800, D from BC wrote: >> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:14 +0000, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote: >>>D from BC wrote: >>>> Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low >>>> Distortion!
>>>> But not a distortion spec in sight :( I suppose super low means it >>>> can't be measured and that's why there no spec :)
>Check for something like "capacitance change with voltage" or so.
>>>> I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
>>>I guess you mean dielectric absorption ?. Wikipedia have an article on >>>this iirc, which describes the effect and compares dielectrics.
>>>This isn't a golden ears oxygen free copper scenario, is it ?...
>> Beats me.. >> I just get attracted to things with 'super low' in the title. :)
>> Do you have a preferred type of chip capacitor (ex 1206 size) for audio >> active filters?
>Well, I wouldn't use ceramics, that's for sure. I don't know what other >materials are available in chip size, other than tantalum and aluminum >electrolytics.
>But, go ahead and get some samples, design them into something, and >report back with distortion figures. ;-)
>Good Luck! >Rich
Digikey has super low distortion chip capacitors in stock. I'll just try'm out.. Or perhaps... I'll check ebay for an Audio Precision System 2.. :P They may be going for cheap if the economy is killing audio companies. :P
> But not a distortion spec in sight :( > I suppose super low means it can't be measured and that's why there no > spec :)
> I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
> D from BC > Amateur smps designer > British Columbia, Canada > Posted to sci.electronics.design
I care about low distortion in capacitors and other parts for the purposes of precision instrumentation, not because of any "golden ears." I've tested quite a few C0G dielectric parts, and find them to be a negligible contributor to distortion in the RF filters I design. Coils with powdered iron or ferrite core material are out, but air (or phenolic or similar) core coils generally have very low distortion. Not all mechanical relays are as low distortion as the air core coils and C0G caps, and I've never found a really good solid-state switch that will work over the whole 0.1-100MHz range.
You can get C0G caps up to 0.1uF in surface mount...
The only miniature caps with inherantly low distortion I can immediately think of are AVX's (formerly Corning) monolithic glass caps; basically layers of glass and aluminum fused into a solid block. Limited range of capacitance and very, very expensive. NASA likes 'em.
Sound like perfect audiophile hardware? :)
My Sony XDR-F1HD tuner uses some type of surface mount coupling caps in the output stage, at 1uF and 2.2uF. They don't look like electrolytics, so I assume ceramic and not stacked film. The two-transistor stage adds distortion and a hack replaces it with a opamp active filter but retains the cap. If I'm going to hack mine, I wanted to bypass those caps with polypropylenes, the whole circuit would be on a piece of perfboard as I'm not up to working on surface mount. If I knew what the capacitors were, I might just leave them in the circuit.
It >would< be nice to know what the "best" surface mount caps are, in terms of DA and DF.
> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:14 +0000, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote: > >D from BC wrote: > >> Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! > >> Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion!
<ggher...@gmail.com> wrote: >On Nov 4, 6:30 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:14 +0000, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote: >> >D from BC wrote: >> >> Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! >> >> Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion!
> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:30:01 -0800, D from BC wrote: > > On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:14 +0000, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote: > >>D from BC wrote: > >>> Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low > >>> Distortion!
> >>> But not a distortion spec in sight :( I suppose super low means it > >>> can't be measured and that's why there no spec :)
> Check for something like "capacitance change with voltage" or so.
> >>> I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
> >>I guess you mean dielectric absorption ?. Wikipedia have an article on > >>this iirc, which describes the effect and compares dielectrics.
> >>This isn't a golden ears oxygen free copper scenario, is it ?...
> > Beats me.. > > I just get attracted to things with 'super low' in the title. :)
> > Do you have a preferred type of chip capacitor (ex 1206 size) for audio > > active filters?
> Well, I wouldn't use ceramics, that's for sure. I don't know what other > materials are available in chip size, other than tantalum and aluminum > electrolytics.
There are SMT film capacitors. They are so touchy as to be useless. I made the mistake of designing some in. I had to change to C0G capacitors in a bigger package.
> But, go ahead and get some samples, design them into something, and > report back with distortion figures. ;-)
I was after 2% capacitors not super duper low distortion.
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:21:45 -0800 (PST), George Herold
<ggher...@gmail.com> wrote: >How about polyproplene through hole?
>George H.
I want to know the best I can do with chip capacitors. And... I only do smt. And.. I hate drilling holes and using gigantic parts.
I'm wondering about this as a PP competitor.
http://embedded365.com/Locator/Products/ArticleID/25105/Action/Issue/... 'Designed for high-frequency filtering applications, the CF Series of surface-mount MLCCs (multilayer ceramic chip capacitors) is said to be a less expensive, smaller and more reliable alternative to SMT plastic film capacitors for designers of consumer audio equipment and PLL mobile phone circuits. '
http://www.yuden.co.jp/ut/product/capacitor/common5.html#feature 'Low distortion and low shock noise make these capacitors appropriatefor use in analog or digital mobile devices. Superior heat-resistance, high breakdown voltage, and mechanical strength make these capacitors appropriate for replacing film capacitors. Applications Signal line for AV products Analog signal coupling applications PLL circuit of mobile phones Good temperature characteristics for time constant circuits, oscillation circuits and filters '
However, there's no data on the distortion which makes this part a bit mysterious.
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:21:45 -0800 (PST), George Herold ><ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Nov 4, 6:30 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:14 +0000, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote: >>> >D from BC wrote: >>> >> Not just Low but Super Low Distortion! >>> >> Next year...Mega Ultra Super Low Distortion!
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:21:45 -0800 (PST), George Herold
> <ggher...@gmail.com> wrote: > >How about polyproplene through hole?
> >George H.
> I want to know the best I can do with chip capacitors. > And... > I only do smt. > And.. > I hate drilling holes and using gigantic parts.
> I'm wondering about this as a PP competitor.
> http://embedded365.com/Locator/Products/ArticleID/25105/Action/Issue/... > 'Designed for high-frequency filtering applications, the CF Series of > surface-mount MLCCs (multilayer ceramic chip capacitors) is said to be > a less expensive, smaller and more reliable alternative to SMT plastic > film capacitors for designers of consumer audio equipment and PLL > mobile phone circuits. '
> http://www.yuden.co.jp/ut/product/capacitor/common5.html#feature > 'Low distortion and low shock noise make these capacitors > appropriatefor use in analog or digital mobile devices. > Superior heat-resistance, high breakdown voltage, and mechanical > strength make these capacitors appropriate for replacing film > capacitors. > Applications > Signal line for AV products > Analog signal coupling applications > PLL circuit of mobile phones > Good temperature characteristics for time constant circuits, > oscillation circuits and filters '
> However, there's no data on the distortion which makes this part a bit > mysterious. > I hate drilling holes and using gigantic parts.
It's cheap to get someone else to drill the holes. (Don't you use a board house?) And the caps aren't that big... depending on the value. Though Panasonic stopped making polyP and now there seems to be only Wima.
Digikey also has acrylic film chips listed but no stock.. http://www.cde.com/catalogs/FCA.pdf 'Highlights •Smallest film chips•No piezoelectric effect•Non-polarized, non-magnetic•Low ESR•1.0 ìF/10V in 1206 case Distortion Free Audio' See detail void distortion bar chart at bottom of sheet.
> > But not a distortion spec in sight :( > > I suppose super low means it can't be measured and that's why there no > > spec :)
> > I thought about using these for high end audio active filters.
> NP0 porcelain capacitors are low distortion. All the other ceramics > are nonlinear WRT voltage.
Yep. NPO is the old (ancient?? ;-) name for C0G dielectric.
> Unfortunately any ceramic that gives you a highish value in a small > package is very nonlinear and piezoelectric too boot.
Not sure what a "highish" value is, but I'm thankful in the work I do that I have 0.1uF 50V C0G in 1206 SMT case size, and I can get up to 1uF 50V in thru-hole. Even 0.1uF is quite useful in audio range active filters--my work these days encounters that mostly as PLL loop filters, but for low phase noise, a lack of microphonics in the loop filter caps is a big plus. They also have much lower dielectric absorption than the high-K ceramics. That makes them useful in integrators. There are times when other caps are appropriate, but it's nice having an SMT part that's a whole lot better than the high-K ceramics and doesn't get destroyed in SMT processing. (I've found polyprops to be extremely nice if you want something with a very slow self-discharge rate. I think I posted something about my tests on that here in SED some years ago...)
Someone else mentioned the glass dielectric caps. I have a bunch of those, and have never thought all that highly of them. They're OK in most respects, but the dielectric absorption is pretty terrible, actually. I think Bob Pease mentioned them in one of his "dielectric absorption" columns.
> On Nov 4, 10:50 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote: >> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:21:45 -0800 (PST), George Herold
>> <ggher...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> How about polyproplene through hole? >>> George H. >> I want to know the best I can do with chip capacitors. >> And... >> I only do smt. >> And.. >> I hate drilling holes and using gigantic parts.
>> I'm wondering about this as a PP competitor.
>> http://embedded365.com/Locator/Products/ArticleID/25105/Action/Issue/... >> 'Designed for high-frequency filtering applications, the CF Series of >> surface-mount MLCCs (multilayer ceramic chip capacitors) is said to be >> a less expensive, smaller and more reliable alternative to SMT plastic >> film capacitors for designers of consumer audio equipment and PLL >> mobile phone circuits. '
>> http://www.yuden.co.jp/ut/product/capacitor/common5.html#feature >> 'Low distortion and low shock noise make these capacitors >> appropriatefor use in analog or digital mobile devices. >> Superior heat-resistance, high breakdown voltage, and mechanical >> strength make these capacitors appropriate for replacing film >> capacitors. >> Applications >> Signal line for AV products >> Analog signal coupling applications >> PLL circuit of mobile phones >> Good temperature characteristics for time constant circuits, >> oscillation circuits and filters '
>> However, there's no data on the distortion which makes this part a bit >> mysterious.
>> I hate drilling holes and using gigantic parts.
> It's cheap to get someone else to drill the holes. (Don't you use a > board house?) And the caps aren't that big... depending on the value. > Though Panasonic stopped making polyP and now there seems to be only > Wima.
Vishay has the old Roederstein series too. Currently using MKP1837 which are 1% tol. Not all the E192 serie though :-( In fact just the E6 decade between 10 and 100nF, but hey, it's still there...
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:01:22 -0800 (PST), George Herold
<ggher...@gmail.com> wrote: >It's cheap to get someone else to drill the holes. (Don't you use a >board house?) And the caps aren't that big... depending on the value. >Though Panasonic stopped making polyP and now there seems to be only >Wima.
>George H.
I'm a hobbyist/entrepreneur/designer/researcher. I make my own boards..
I like the challenge of cramming everything onto a small space. :)
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